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Why Is Oxidized Fat Bad?


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#1
watty31

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Any info on why dave seems to think this?

I also found this guy called peter attire, who himself is a medical doctor. Fantastic blog for the scientifically minded people who like the details. He eats a 100 % fat diet, but he does cook his fat, which made me wonder why dave doesn't?

http://eatingacademy...esterol-part-ii

cheers.

#2
M. Thomas

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You don't want to build a house with crappy damaged materials for the same reason you don't want to eat oxidized fats. Every cell wall is comprised of fats and if you are giving your body oxidized fats to make itself with than you can assume the health of individual cells would be compromised.

#3
Jason Miller

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Cook and destroy are two different things, we cook our fat, but try to stay at the best temperatures. To go paleo for a moment, food is not cooked in nature, so all cooking is damage, try to minimize it.

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#4
watty31

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papers on it? surey eating oxidised fat is still better than no fat.

#5
Jason Miller

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How is over cooking fat different from over cooking meat or over cooking veggies. Why would you say something so extreme like oxidized is better than zero?, how about just cook it properly, if you need a study to understand that, you better put corks on your forks.

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#6
watty31

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How is over cooking fat different from over cooking meat or over cooking veggies. Why would you say something so extreme like oxidized is better than zero?, how about just cook it properly, if you need a study to understand that, you better put corks on your forks.


okay, chill out, i am not attacking anyone, just trying to find out information about a fairly radical change to my diet i am contemplating. Well, i said something as extreme as oxidized is better than zero because the way it comes across on this board, it appears that zero fat could be better for you. If I can eat oxidized fat, the diet to me could become managable, unlike at the moment. And your last sentence made me take a big sigghhh and raise my eyebrows. Why comment if your not going to be helpful and insult me? Don't answer that obviously.

#7
Stevo

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If I can eat oxidized fat, the diet to me could become managable, unlike at the moment.

How so? Are certain fats more available where you are? Which fats are you using that it is easier for you to eat those?
It might be a case of changing the way you use them, e.g. I used to use olive oil for cooking but found out that it oxidises when I do that, so I switched it to only using it uncooked so it wasn't oxidised. I now use coconut oil for all of my cooking (it can get to a very high temperature without oxidising).

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#8
NASH

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Do be honest I eat pretty much entirely BP but I still sear meat pretty often and am not really the best about the cooking methods. It may not be the BEST thing for me but is still way better than I had been eating. I now have a ton of energy and have lost body fat.

I'd say just try and lean towards not burning shit and get better about cooking as you go. The most important thing to me is to get more of the green zone foods in my diet one way or the other.

Also, most of my fat is in the BP coffee and butter on the vegetables.

#9
Jason Miller

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okay, chill out, i am not attacking anyone, just trying to find out information about a fairly radical change to my diet i am contemplating. Well, i said something as extreme as oxidized is better than zero because the way it comes across on this board, it appears that zero fat could be better for you. If I can eat oxidized fat, the diet to me could become managable, unlike at the moment. And your last sentence made me take a big sigghhh and raise my eyebrows. Why comment if your not going to be helpful and insult me? Don't answer that obviously.

I couldn't think of a good way to end the response (none would have sufficed), it popped in my head, made me laugh, had a rhym, and tested if you were a troll all at once.

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#10
Samir aka Judo

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This was from another post of mine from the recipe section so i just copy pasted it. Its only about room temp cooking. Ill add stuff at the end.

Before cooking anything you should be trying to get the food to room temperature for a few reasons. You want to be able to cook all of your food gently, on low heat and for a short period of time. Keeping that in mind while cooking bulletproof will let you know if your doing something wrong. So defrost your frozen ground beef in the fridge and then bring your meat to room temp before cooking to allow for low heat to cook it easily and evenly. Yes it promotes bacterial growth but you will live, ever had a dry aged steak? Lol thats 28 days of gross. Same with eggs and veggies, poaching eggs are optimal at room temp to make the runny inside not cold and cooked. Meat in a fridge is a contracted muscle and loosens at room temp also allowing you to cook evenly without pink staying. A frozen state is for storage or for fruit for smoothies. (Unless your freezing liver pellets to swallow whole to avoid tasting it haha!)

I cook my ground beef in a thin layer on low and haven't done steaks yet so i can't give you advice on that. But just the few ground rules i stated earlier should help.
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#11
Pierre Eklund

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"Abstract
Accumulating evidence suggests that oxidized fats and lipid oxidation products in the diet can contribute to the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis. The present review summarizes studies that show that oxidized fat and lipid oxidation products are present in human foods; that these compounds are absorbed by the intestine and appear in the blood circulation; and that these ingested substances can have deleterious cardiovascular effects in both humans and experimental animals. However, considerable additional research is required to establish the extent to which dietary fat oxidation poses a threat to human health and/or longevity."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/11790959/
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#12
watty31

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Cheers Pierre, exactly what i wanted.

#13
kitty

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Pierre is 100% right. Though unfortunately the mechanisms of atherosclerotic plaque formation are not fully understood as of yet, it seems to be evident that the kinds of fat you eat influence your chances of laying it down. Eating good saturated fat will increase your HDL cholesterol, and make your LDL cholesterol larger and 'fluffy' as such. It is believed that the start of atherosclerosis is when a small dense oxidated LDL particle becomes implanted in an artery wall, and from there you get inflammatory cytokines and chemokines coming and also attaching to the wall. These trap more LDL molecules and a hard plaque forms. It will grow over time. You can also reverse it to a degree with dietary intervention, which has also been studied. The kind of diet used to do this varies from super low fat diets to moderate fat diets focusing on fish and olive oils, to high protein diets.

Since the type of fat you eat determines to a degree the ratios and subtypes of cholesterol you have floating around you, eating the best fats you can will be much better for you, and decrease your chances of cardiovascular disease, stroke, bad joint health, and atherosclerosis.

When you say 'oxidated' fat, do you mean you left your olive oil or rice bran oil or soybean or canola or whatever oil out in the sun with the cap open? That is when reactive oxygen species would scavenge hydrogen atoms from the nice little fat chains and this would cause a chain reaction through the whole population of fat in the given bottle. The oxygen molecules would decrease the quality of the fats, and they certainly are not the best thing for you. However, if instead you meant 'hydrogenated fat', that is different. That is the oil the french fries or dimsims or any deep fried food is cooked in. This is where a mono or polyunsaturated fat has been heated to the point that the carbon chains are messed up severely. The double bonds of the unsaturated fats are broken, and hydrogen atoms react into the molecule.

You might now say 'But it's now just one of those saturated fats that those silly paleo people are preaching to the world' (I certainly did) Alas, they are not. These mono and polyunsaturated fats were not meant to be full of hydrogens. These fats are usually liquid at room temperature, whereas your beef fat, butter and coconut oil are not. Then you mess around with the mono/polyunsaturated fats, you heat them up too much, and you put hydrogens where they weren't supposed to be, and you have...................margarine!!!! Yummy....not.

The hydrogenated fats are worse than oxidated fats. However, both should be avoided.

Eating the fats Dave talks about will allow your HDL:LDL ratio to increase (protective against athero) and simultaneously increase your HDL:TAG (triglycerides -or triacyglycerides ) ratio. Also protective. Furthermore, these fats will make your LDLs all nice and fluffy. These are MUCH less likely to embed themselves in your artery walls.

Keep in mind, arguing about fats is a good thing, but sugar is a real problem. It also plays a serious role in health and disease. Probably atherosclerosis too.

Hope this helped.
kittyk

#14
suntoucher

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These fats are usually liquid at room temperature, whereas your beef fat, butter and coconut oil are not. Then you mess around with the mono/polyunsaturated fats, you heat them up too much, and you put hydrogens where they weren't supposed to be, and you have...................margarine!!!!

You better explain the chemistry behind these statements in the context of preparing food at home. Pure speculation and out of context.


The problem is that throwing around phrases like "oxidised fat" doesn't mean much. What Pierre linked to is a meta-study, and without accessing the full-text to see what's inside, you *can't* use it to support anything. It's not talking about food prep, that's for sure! Context matters.

I'd like to note that any thinking BPer will NOT be cooking with PUFA or MONO heavy oils.

The problem is that it's all very speculative. Particularly when it comes to prep:

When does the innocent stake fat become "oxidised" and deadly? What does it actually mean in the context of cooking the steak in, say, coconut oil (which is stable at those temperatures)? How much of it? Which type of fat? How do you know it'll even oxidise?


I'll play the Devil's advocate and say that OP is good to go if his cooking methods are sensible, doesn't char like crazy or deep fry.
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#15
MaverickAzz

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You dirty bitches are going to make me sit down and figure out the oxidation process chemically. It's the last thing I needed today. Before I do, Mark Thomas' analogy holds water. We all know you use fats as building blocks, so why use shitty ones?

Let me dig through some stuff and see what I can do. I love you guys, but fuck.... I am starting to want a concrete answer myself.

As BPers why do we have to be such a pain in our own ass? :-P

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#16
mralan2950

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You better explain the chemistry behind these statements in the context of preparing food at home. Pure speculation and out of context.


The problem is that throwing around phrases like "oxidised fat" doesn't mean much. What Pierre linked to is a meta-study, and without accessing the full-text to see what's inside, you *can't* use it to support anything. It's not talking about food prep, that's for sure! Context matters.

I'd like to note that any thinking BPer will NOT be cooking with PUFA or MONO heavy oils.

The problem is that it's all very speculative. Particularly when it comes to prep:

When does the innocent stake fat become "oxidised" and deadly? What does it actually mean in the context of cooking the steak in, say, coconut oil (which is stable at those temperatures)? How much of it? Which type of fat? How do you know it'll even oxidise?


I'll play the Devil's advocate and say that OP is good to go if his cooking methods are sensible, doesn't char like crazy or deep fry.


Good post. I would like Dave's input on this.

#17
suntoucher

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You dirty bitches are going to make me sit down and figure out the oxidation process chemically. It's the last thing I needed today. Before I do, Mark Thomas' analogy holds water. We all know you use fats as building blocks, so why use shitty ones?

Let me dig through some stuff and see what I can do. I love you guys, but fuck.... I am starting to want a concrete answer myself.

As BPers why do we have to be such a pain in our own ass? :-P

Sorry man, I had to call in the big guns to do the heavy lifting, lol.
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#18
kitty

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Suntoucher and all. I believe the goal of my first post was the explain why oxidised fats are bad. I also wanted to point out that oxidised fats, and hydrogenated fats are different things. My final goal was to explain why the fats Dave recommends are good.

If you believe I did not give a good explanation, then I apologize.

Also, let me explain the biochemical terms I used. These explain the chemistry behind the process of 'oxidation' and 'hydrogenation'.
oxidation=oxygen 'scavenging' atoms (most commonly hydrogens) off of a molecule.These are not any normal oxygen molecules, they are ROS (reactive oxygen species), which are different to the oxygen you breathe. They are reactive because they are missing electrons from their outermost valence circle, and they 'want' to get that circle filled, so they scavenge other atoms or atoms' electrons. In turn making those atoms also reactive. This can create a chain reaction resulting in a cascade of molecules reacting with each other and changing the original molecules' structures. Hydrogens are nice and small and easy to scavenge. This changes the biochemistry of the molecule, making it do things it shouldn't do. Such as embed itself in your artery walls, for example. This happens easily in mono or polyunsaturated oils. If you are paleo, this could be your olive oil. If you leave it out in the sunlight, or do not have the cap screwed on properly, oxygen can get in and cause these oxidation problems. UV light is a slightly different process, but very similar. Heat can also do this, which is why you should not cook with olive oil at a high temperature.

Oxidation probability increases dramatically with the degree of unsaturation. A saturated fat is 'saturated' with hydrogen molecules. it is a hydrocarbon chain that has a carboxyl (COOH) end and a methyl end(CH3), each carbon along the chain is connected with a single bond and has two hydrogens attached.
A unsaturated fat has one or more double bonds between two carbons, thereby having less Hydrogen molecules. These double bonds are less stable than the single bonds and full hyrdogen saturation of a saturated fat, which makes these unsaturated fats easier for reactive oxygen species to play with. Once the ROS scavenges a Hydrogen from a double bond in the unsaturated fat, a chain reaction occurs as I described above. The molecule becomes unstable. This one oxidised fat will quickly cause the other nearby fats to also oxidise.

These oxidised fats when consumed, be it by overcooking an unsaturated fat, leaving the bottle open, or in sunlight, have the potential to embed themselves in your artery walls. I described the atherosclerotic process in my first post.

I hope that explains the chemistry sufficiently.

I apologize if my joke about margarine was taken at face value. It is a very industrial process, creating that, and you would struggle to do it at home.

kittyk

#19
MaverickAzz

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Sorry man, I had to call in the big guns to do the heavy lifting, lol.


I'm not a big gun.... just ask my girlfriend :eek: :-P

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#20
MaverickAzz

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Also.... what Kitty said. I've been out all day drinking beer instead of inside researching all day.
She's talking about free radicals. Viciously reactive things.

Pulled from here:
http://en.wikipedia....ical_(chemistry)

In chemistry, a radical (more precisely, a free radical) is an atom, molecule, or ion that has unpaired valence electrons or an open electron shell, and therefore may be seen as having one or more "dangling" covalent bonds.

With some exceptions, these "dangling" bonds make free radicals highly chemically reactive towards other substances, or even towards themselves: their molecules will often spontaneously dimerize or polymerize if they come in contact with each other. Most radicals are reasonably stable only at very low concentrations in inert media or in vacuum.


(now from the Biology section which might be of interest to us....)



Because free radicals are necessary for life, the body has a number of mechanisms to minimize free-radical-induced damage and to repair damage that occurs, such as the enzymessuperoxide dismutase, catalase, glutathione peroxidase and glutathione reductase. In addition, antioxidants play a key role in these defense mechanisms. These are often the three vitamins, vitamin A, vitamin C and vitamin E and polyphenol antioxidants.

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